Saturday, December 11

Rummy, Humvees, Armour, and the protection of projection.

Earlier this week a guardsman that was allowed to speak to the Vaunted Secretary Rumsfeld, apparently he did not follow the script. Apparently things are not so rosy in Iraq. Via No Capital

Middle East - AP
Rumsfeld Hears Gripes From GIs in Kuwait

Wed Dec 8, 6:24 PM ET

Add to My Yahoo! Middle East - AP

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait - In a rare public airing of grievances, disgruntled soldiers complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Wednesday about long deployments and a lack of armored vehicles and other equipment.

"You go to war with the Army you have," Rumsfeld replied, "not the Army you might want or wish to have."

Spc. Thomas Wilson had asked the defense secretary, "Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles?" Shouts of approval and applause arose from the estimated 2,300 soldiers who had assembled to see Rumsfeld.

Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.

"We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north," Wilson, 31, of Ringgold, Ga., concluded after asking again.
I first heard about this lack of armor in late september 2003, shortly after they tried to shaft the soldiers and their families back home with pay cuts. Back in the day when I still believed a critical mass would lead to dubby's implosion. As you cn imagine, over on the other side of the fence they are not dealing with the facts of the case per se, just the motivation of the questioner. You see, apparently the kid who asked the question was coached by a reporter, so you see, the question itself is no longer valid. I guess its time for a side trip the the site of Warpornucopia called LGF. What follows it how the mighty CJ see's things. Afterward a bit from the shallow end of the pool.
The executive editor of the Chattanooga Times Free Press now says he “regrets” readers were not informed that their reporter, Edward Lee Pitts, planted a question for Donald Rumsfeld: Paper Regrets Handling of Rumsfeld Story.

Notice how nobody seems concerned about the unethical nature of what Pitts did—least of all Pitts himself, who bragged openly about setting up that soldier. The only problem, according to the people quoted by the Associated Press, is that readers weren’t told about Pitts’ machinations.

But media is supposed to report news. Not manufacture it.

I know Charles, welcome to the party, where were you when they were spreading that SBVFT crap around, Oh right, please don't mind me you can return to felating the prez. Now with over 500 comments you now that people are righteously indignant that someone might question the quality of the imperial wardrobe.
#4 Curt 12/10/2004 08:51AM PST

Nice to see someone is at least thinking, but I'm sure not holding my breath over the rest of the MSM coming clean....

Thank God for blogs....

Question: With each passing day, I wonder if the Democrats hate Al Gore more and more for inventing the Internet....

(first? probably not...:))

Yes thank god for the blogs, where you can avoid anything resembling the news while seeking out places that reiforce your ill informed viewpoints. We must live in alternate universii my friend. Sorry to break it to you charlie, but this democrat also praises the invisible cloud being and Al Gore for his sponsorship of the legislation that funded the thing, and for all the other members of Congress that voted yea. Buddy you can thank the MSM for you Gore/internet snickers. As well as for C- Tiberius.
#6 rabid fanatic 12/10/2004 08:51AM PST

As I mentioned yesterday, the thing that bugs me the most is the purpose of the deception, i.e. another attack on the senior members of the administration in an effort to discredit their handling of the war. You can argue, as Jheka did, that we don't know that this was the motive, but I believe it is hard-wired into the majority of the MSM.

dud belief in something is right next door to conclusive proof, just go ahead and say it; "if the MSM had not been so hard on Bush he would have won by 100 Million votes"

#9 Grafton 12/10/2004 08:53AM PST

Charles, why don't you post a followup to this story about the fact that the armor is *not* being produced at capacity? Isn't that more important than yet more about this reporter? I understand your concern about the media, but how about some concern for the 192 men and women killed in un-armored Humvees? If this story pressures the Pentagon into armoring at full capacity, and saves lives (which is likely), even one life, then this question, however asked, was a good thing. Otherwise, your critics will say you care less about the troops than your own irritation with the media.

Now this Grafton guy seems OK, and makes a couple of fine points, lets see how long it takes for the pile up to commence.

#11 Curt 12/10/2004 08:57AM PST

#6 - rabid fanatic:

My theory is it's just plain wired into at least a one genration, the offspring of the same type hippies like the couple I saw in a park in Haight -Ashbury in about 1967, laying on blanket, groping each other, and the woman was pushing the about 18 month old child away....

The "me" generation, and the resultant "raising" of the children to be selfish. They now have populated academia, and the left wing of the political spectrum, demanding more and more and more, and woe be unto the person in office who doesn't give them everything they want....

/thoughtful rant on society at large

I saw an atrocity once too, and I have formed an entire world view based on that one fateful event so many years ago. I'd share some of my theories in a "thoughful rant" but I haven't got the time right now, Oh wait that's pretty much what I do here, allright then, lets move along.

#12 rabid fanatic 12/10/2004 08:58AM PST

Grafton how do you know armor is NOT being produced at capacity? Are you saying that we are intentionally under protecting our soldiers so that more of them die? Why would we do that?

This is what you get for an honest question and a good point. clearly anything that poses a challenge to the leadership of dear leader must be challenged with a vengeance, and when shown the proof, just blame the accuser. rabid, uhm hate to break it to you but that information is readily available. In fact the Junior Senator from my state (I know, he's one of those) where a large amount of the vehicles in question are built had a few nice things to say about Rumsfeld.

Bayh, a Democrat and a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who has pushed for more armored Humvees in the past, said Rumsfeld was mistaken that vehicle and armor production were at capacity.

"I don't think he was lying, I think he didn't know," Bayh said in a teleconference with reporters from his office in Washington. "I think a lot of the information is controlled by the Pentagon bureaucracy and he was misinformed."

The Indiana manufacturer of Humvees for the military and the Ohio company that adds armor to them are not running near production capacity and are making all that the Pentagon has requested, spokesmen for both companies said.

Really neither company running near capacity, and rummy's excuse is a lack of cash? In a related story Bayh continues.

INDIANAPOLIS -- Military planners never envisioned the difficulty the United States would have in stabilizing Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein, Sen. Evan Bayh said.That mistake led the Pentagon to underestimate the need for fully armored military vehicles to protect U.S. troops, Bayh, D-Ind., said Thursday as he urged a substantial increase in the production of the vehicles."The lack of troops, the lack of armor, the lack of other kinds of equipment, it all comes back to them thinking that we were going to be welcomed as liberating heroes and that this was going to be a police action and nothing more."

Bayh's comments came a day after a soldier publicly complained to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld about a shortage of armored vehicles and other equipment. Army Spc. Thomas Wilson also told Rumsfeld that soldiers have had to scavenge through landfills to find materials to provide adequate protection for their vehicles.Bayh said he had heard similar complaints ever since the war started."At the beginning, although not acceptable, it was at least somewhat understandable. Everybody makes mistakes, but this mistake has been made over and over and over again," he said.
No shit. but if we did not continue to make these mistakes over and over we might not benefit as much from the massive war profiteering exercise, and naked grab for power that a generation long conflict can provide. We'll finish with this bit from a denizen of LGF, with a bit of a lead in. Ok it is well documented that our soldiers have suffered from exactly the situation that bayh raises above, and this is due to the candy land vision of a quick and easy payforitself kind of vision the planners had at the start. The bottom line is that there have been needless casualties due to the lack of armor, but apparently that is not the issue.........

13 Geepers 12/10/2004 08:58AM PST

What really struck me, is that this soldier starts his question with: "Our soldiers ..." And when asked to repeat his question he asks "Our soldiers ... "

Ask yourself; would a soldier naturally refers to the other members of his company as "Our soldiers ..."

Very telling as to if this question was fed to him by a reporter.

And it looks like Lee got both of his plants up to the mike because the sixth question is almost identical to the third.

This stinks.

For anyone who wants to you can listen to the entire address and Q&A's here:

The Pentagon Channel

For shame for shame, it is truly sick my friend, when a bunch of pajama wearing keyboard warriers can immediatley pile on a guy who is actually over there. Did it actually occur to any of these idjits that maybe the kid just wanted to avoid sounding like a fool? Of course not the problem is not the question (that is to be ignored) the problem is with the delivery.

They continue to proudly identify with the mantle of victimhood. That damn MSM. Hell in my universe, without the compliance of the media, Dubby would have long ago been impeached. Good thing that independant prosecutor law ran out in 2000.

Just before I was ready to close the window on the LGF bots, I found someone else taking notice of Graftons question and stepping up to the defence of their battalion commander.
#23 Studsup 12/10/2004 09:05AM PST


Why does Charles have to do that? Why not Pitts, if that was his story? Unfortunately, Pitts real agenda was to make his bones by ambushing the SOD. In the end, that was the only story that counted, that's the one the rest of the MSM at home and abroad is running with, and that's exactly what Pitts wanted to achieve.

Charles' focus tends to be the media, what it reports and what it doesn't and particularly as it relates to the global Islamic JIhad. If you want to learn more about the armored vehicle situation in Iraq, subscribe to Soldier of Fortune, they've been discussing it intelligently there on and off for two years.